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God  
#1 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 11:42:07 AM(UTC)
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Phonecall at 8am from another Questor fan mentioned that CCP are releasing a new tool at 6pm tonight @ fanfest?

Anyone heared about this - and I guess more importantly should we hold out running Qs'tr until we know more??

Sounds like they are releasing Skynet into the wild TBH..
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adrnalnaddiction  
#2 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 11:51:16 AM(UTC)
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From what i have heard form various sources on other botting sites, their "tools" are mainly based on pattern recognition and length of time logged in... Both of which aren't a problem if you bot correctly. As for holding off on using questor, thats your own choice. From personal experience with other newly implemented bot detection programs on other MMO's, they generally release a patch or require you to sign a new EULA document before anything major can be implemented especially if it runs directly off your machine. If this is true, then we should see something after downtime.
Semaj  
#3 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 12:30:21 PM(UTC)
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well hearsay is that its already in use, apparently 1000 accounts were banned yesterday morning.

Them numbers are supposedly from the security presentation yesterday, how much validity there is to it is anyone's guess.
adrnalnaddiction  
#4 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 12:33:30 PM(UTC)
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yaaaa basically this all came from one guy posting in one thread, who claims he was at fanfest... no one else who attended has yet to post anything relating to this matter.
PoorNewb23  
#5 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 1:33:17 PM(UTC)
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PulsarXc  
#6 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 1:53:59 PM(UTC)
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Theres not much to be worried about, Botters are only a problem to CCP if they surprise them and take them from behind Dancing

Edited by user Friday, March 25, 2011 1:54:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Da_Teach  
#7 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 2:00:54 PM(UTC)
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Well I have no doubt people will get banned for botting with Questor, didn't Trigun get banned a few days ago?

If this is due to the 'new botting detection' is everyone's guess.

I'll stick with my golden rule, don't be stupid.
Semir  
#8 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 2:52:04 PM(UTC)
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For the risk that I will sound like ultimate noob, can anyone post some general rules for avoiding detection? (what signs are these detection tools looking for?)
Do you generaly recommend at least for a few days keep heads down?
Gray  
#9 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 2:54:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Da_Teach Go to Quoted Post
Well I have no doubt people will get banned for botting with Questor, didn't Trigun get banned a few days ago?

Then we need a "banned" subforum on this forum - to post whinesreports about botting accounts which have gone down the drain, discuss it and try to realize together what was the reason... It was a rather informative source on Glider forum.
Semaj  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 5:37:06 PM(UTC)
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yeah a "warned & banned" section would be good. So far according to the PD forums and a few other places the new tool uses login length of time and pattern recognition.

Dont know how much of questor is randomised, the only bit i know about is the mission acceptance. But i would say that 12 hours each day would be a safe amount of time
Cormac  
#11 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 8:22:44 PM(UTC)
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Currently on http://fanfest.eveonline.com/en/stream/free presentation on botting.
ciocio  
#12 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2011 10:17:51 AM(UTC)
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If you don't behave stupid, you won't get caught by server-side detection (not behaving stupid may be hard if you run a larger network of bots for RMT but should be easy for anyone who runs a bot or two on the side semi-afk to augment his personal income).

The 3 strikes rule does effectively mean that you only get banned for a few days (maybe one week max?) on first offense (unless they ban you for RMT) - it's going to be a light slap on the wrist to let you know they can detect Questor and from that point onwards you'll just cease using it.

The presentation did indeed sound as if the days of EVE having open doors for questor and similar tools will be over relatively soon (and DaTeach already announced that he's not going to play cat&mouse with CCP) but I doubt that CCP will install any client-side detection without your knowledge and approval.

Maybe be a little more careful about installing client patches and hold out for some time before installing larger updates but that should be granted anyways.

=> commercial botters will have to get more serious about evading CCP detection but from my point of view the presentation by Darius & Mr. Malware Analyst (forgot his name) was actually pretty reassuring for people (like me) who use bots in a very limited fashion for personal income only.
When Questor stops working or I get a 1st strike ban I'll probably just shed a tear in memory of the good times I had while not having to run missions manually and stop using bots for this activity (wanted to write a decent (low-frequency) trade bot for a long time now, when Questor as a source of ISK income dries up I might actually get myself to do that).
Gray  
#13 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2011 4:55:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ciocio Go to Quoted Post
The 3 strikes rule does effectively mean that you only get banned for a few days (maybe one week max?) on first offense (unless they ban you for RMT) - it's going to be a light slap on the wrist to let you know they can detect Questor and from that point onwards you'll just cease using it.

And? What do you do after that with your toon? In WoW it was possible to move your char to another account, because all warnings/suspensions were placed on account rather than on a char. So both sides were happy: game owner receives payament for registration of a new account + payment for transfer, botter keeps his char. Is that possible in EVE?

Originally Posted by: ciocio Go to Quoted Post
from my point of view the presentation by Darius & Mr. Malware Analyst (forgot his name) was actually pretty reassuring

Define "reassuring" Wink Did you mean that it is just too weak and useless to detect Questor as it is now?
ciocio  
#14 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:19:56 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ciocio Go to Quoted Post
The 3 strikes rule does effectively mean that you only get banned for a few days (maybe one week max?) on first offense (unless they ban you for RMT) - it's going to be a light slap on the wrist to let you know they can detect Questor and from that point onwards you'll just cease using it.

And? What do you do after that with your toon? In WoW it was possible to move your char to another account, because all warnings/suspensions were placed on account rather than on a char. So both sides were happy: game owner receives payament for registration of a new account + payment for transfer, botter keeps his char. Is that possible in EVE?

no idea if this is possible or not.

I am basically from the opposite point of the botting spectrum than you, Gray.

I run Questor on 2 accounts for 4-8h most days and almost all of the time I am actually playing on the client running Questor (chatting with other people, doing market/industry stuff, helping Questor when it does "stupid" stuff like shooting forever at elite frigates it can't track while having drones on a battleship, swapping hardeners between missions, running courier missions more or less manually depending on mood, ...) or browsing the web alt-tabbing into EVE every two minutes or so.

I found Questor because I was curious how this type of bots works (& performs) and being able to watch a piece of software play the game and working with your own little modifications is just really, really neat :D I followed DaTeach's blog for a long time before trying Questor myself and partly view using Questor as putting my money where my mouth is (imo CCP should be much more aggressive on fighting botting in EVE - especially in terms of adapting game design to reduce repetitiveness).

I actually earn more ISK running a client with Questor than by running missions for the same time on myself as I am usually too bored to run missions efficiently when doing it manually (not looting/salvaging on the go even when running a Marauder, being distracted by browsing the web on the in-game browser, tabbing out to do sth else and not coming back to the mission for a few minutes, ...)

When the accounts I use questor on get flagged, I will just stop using Questor and get back to earning ISK manually on them - a little annoying but no big deal.
I make sure to enjoy the time as long as it lasts :P

Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ciocio Go to Quoted Post
from my point of view the presentation by Darius & Mr. Malware Analyst (forgot his name) was actually pretty reassuring

Define "reassuring" Wink Did you mean that it is just too weak and useless to detect Questor as it is now?

No, I think they will eventually detect Questor in its current state (as questor doesn't try to hide itself).

"Reassuring" in the sense that although I don't use questor on my main account I would hate to get permabans or extended bans on the accounts I use it on.

After watching the presentation my view is that:
- it's highly unlikely I will get caught by server-side detection as long as Questor/DirectEVE doesn't misbehave (due to me essentially playing the game while using Questor and using it only for moderate spans of time)
- I might or might not get caught by client-side detection (mainly depending on the period of time between them implementing a detection method/flaggig accounts and starting the bans)
- if something goes wrong I have the assurance I won't lose my accounts.

I have doubts how effective client-side detection methods ever can be on unrestricted hardware such as a PC but I have no doubts that CCP will be able to deal some serious blows to less professional botting operations if they get serious about their "we basically treat botting as a malware problem" approach. Bot writers in EVE are extremely lazy because so far they could afford to be lazy - maybe this will change.

Another message I took away from FanFest so far is that CCP views the whole "sandbox economy" concept a lot more relaxed than many players do. The answer to the "won't banning the bots cause economic upheaval in EVE?" question basically was "if that happens we'll just adjust drop rates to compensate, no big deal."

edit: the presentation had no details at all regarding detection methods - but the grouping of fighting botting and exploits makes me think that CCP intends to put some serious effort into hardening the client.

Edited by user Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:39:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

PulsarXc  
#15 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:24:46 PM(UTC)
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is there any linky to the fanfest security presentation? i missed the live feed
ciocio  
#16 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:41:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PulsarXc Go to Quoted Post
is there any linky to the fanfest security presentation? i missed the live feed

will be on youtube in a few days
Isker  
#17 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:35:29 AM(UTC)
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They formed a taskforce on security (which includes anti-botting) so I'd say we're officially in the crosshairs. It's worth watching that whole thing. Where do we go from here? I'm curious if you (DT) want to go down that cat and mouse road that inevitably happens when the game company ramps up a defense like it seems they are.
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Tweezers  
#18 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 8:34:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ciocio Go to Quoted Post


"Reassuring" in the sense that although I don't use questor on my main account I would hate to get permabans or extended bans on the accounts I use it on.



Ok you need to drop out of your little dream world nowBrick wall . The 3 people I know who have been banned in last 12 months, only botted on alts and at that time rarely logged into mains cept to change skills.

When there ban came it was all accounts that had logged into that IP address.
If you get banned, ALL of your accounts will go
There ban was for 7 days and when they got back all assets were there.
They did not participate in RMT in any way shape or form, I hear that is way worse.


Understand that by using questor you are doing wrong by CCP, justify it however you want, but your accounts are all at risk the second you typed dotnet questor.

Gray  
#19 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:12:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Isker Go to Quoted Post
I'm curious if you (DT) want to go down that cat and mouse road that inevitably happens when the game company ramps up a defense like it seems they are.

He has said already that he doesn't want to go this road. Which basically means that Questor is doomed the day they release client-side detection. Moreover, it is probably doomed the day some CCP guy comes to github and downloads Questor sources to include its hash into this "Warden"-type detector - because going private after client-side detection is already implemented is too late. I'd say the only way to bot forever and w/o making some kind of shadow driver is the following: Questor needs to be done private and paid ASAP. First, CCP GMs won't care to pay their own money to get in, and bureaucratic ways of getting company money for such a task have to be long and twisted. Last, but not the least: a bot is no threat to a company having 300000 subscribers when there are just 100-200 toons poking around using it.
ciocio  
#20 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:57:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tweezers Go to Quoted Post
There[sic] ban was for 7 days and when they got back all assets were there.

... and this is exactly what I referred to as "reassuring".

I have played EVE for long enough that I am ok with taking the risk of an unexpected permaban (and then moving on to other games) but I wouldn't like getting permanently banned.

Getting banned for 7 days is nothing I see as an issue - I did let my skill training lapse on subscribed accounts for far longer than that when I got bored of EVE in the past.

One or two weeks are nothing in this game.

edit: I actually have access to a VPN (by a provider that other botters are guaranteed not to use) I could use for botting, I could run EVE in VMs if I wanted to, ... but I don't as it's just not worth the :effort:
As I wrote above, my views and opinions are probably pretty much the exact opposite of yours, maybe think of me as a tourist who just finds this whole botting thing somehow exciting and neat.
For some reason it's much more fun to see a bot do what you want it to do in some computer game than look at the results of other, more ordinary programming work.

Edited by user Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:05:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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