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adrnalnaddiction  
#21 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:18:42 PM(UTC)
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I'd be down to pay a decent amount to keep questor updated and private honestly...
PulsarXc  
#22 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:42:10 PM(UTC)
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anybody got a throw away account that they will sacrafice to try this report bot function that is coming out soon, would be interesting what it came up with while using questor 12h/day
tacker  
#23 Posted : Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:52:14 PM(UTC)
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I think the interesting question will be, what the cause of action will be in the future. AFAIK today you only get into the crosshair of CCP if you get reported by other players.
The talks suggest, that this will change in future. For obvious reasons, they did not go into detail in the fanfest talk.

What i gathered, they will use the 'report bot' function as an indicator but always do additional checks (as now i assume). So its just a more convenient way for players to report bots, but this alone change nothing on the backend side of things.
I guess time will tell what the pattern recognition worth, and what is needed to fly under their radar so to speak.

Edited by user Sunday, March 27, 2011 1:53:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Da_Teach  
#24 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 11:42:34 AM(UTC)
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Here's what I see happening, initially CCP will detect bots by behavior. It's probably how they caught the RoidRipper/H-Bot users. Since neither of those two actually change anything within EVE.

After most of them are caught, I see CCP going for the 'injectors'.

You have two flavors, you have the Python injectors (Eran bot, spelling) and you have the 'process' injectors (Questor and ISXEVE). Both are easy to stop but I see the python injectors easier to stop then Questor / ISXEVE. For the Python Injectors you could easily just remove the PyRun_ functions completely, with no way of them to actually inject Python, it'll end pretty damn fast for them.

To disable Questor / ISXEVE in the same way would mean that they'd have to remove the other python functions as well, and those are most likely used by their interal C/C++ functions as well. So that's not really possible. A 'quick' solution would be to mask those functions by using an obfuscator, but that wouldn't stop ISXEVE (it would stop me, because I'd be too bored to keep searching for the required functions).

Once you're done with the obfuscation path, you'd add checks to the Python functions to detect unauthorized usage. This step would have to be done after the obfuscation, otherwise it would be too easy to crack.

Possible ways of detecting unauthorized usage would be to send the call-stack to the server (for both the c/c++ functions as for the python functions!), this was done by the Blizzard-Warden and while not impossible, very hard to circumvent. The way to circumvent this would be by modifying the code, however if you then have a separate thread/function/whatever to check for code modifications then it suddenly becomes a factor 10 harder.

Once your done with that, here's another simple step. Obfuscate your Python code already, but not in the traditional way. Randomize your byte code! Yes, you have the source for both the Python compiles as you do for the Python runtime. Every patch you change this bytecode and RE'ing the python code has become near impossible.

After that you've pretty much stopped ISXEVE and Questor or made their life very hard.

And CCP, at least give me some credit if you decide to implement some of my idea's ;) Even if it's just by a private email which you can easily deny exists. (and yes I know your most likely reading this!)
Bonzo  
#25 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 11:49:26 AM(UTC)
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If questor does get discovered, oh well. It was good while it lasted. I wouldn't mind paying a small subsciption fee to keep Questor under the radar, but realistically there's no guaruntee that doing so would prevent detection. Furthermore Da_Teach made it perfectly clear he didn't want to create a subscription based model for questor because then (if he's charging for money) he'll be obligated to provide tech-support and regular patches etc. I know he does already, but only as a hobby in his spare time.

I think it's a bit harsh if you get ALL of your accounts banned if caught. You can look at it two ways: one CCP is a business and as such won't want to harm their profits by preventing you from playing perfectly legally (and continue paying them) on other accounts; or two as they already have so many subsciptions already banning a few accounts entirely to prevent botting (you've done it before, you've demonstrated you might do it again) to the better of the community (even though most of the economy is supported by bots, and if removed entirely it would probably collapse...).

Furthermore banning by IP isn't very efficient. An IP only supplies the network that the connection is coming from, not individual computers. You might have a situation of say a university dormitory where multiple people play EVE. If CCP ban all accounts linked to that IP they may inadvertantly ban those who were playing perfectly legally; where only one person was botting.
evehunter  
#26 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 2:41:29 PM(UTC)
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Who knows wht will happen.
The fact is, at the moment Questor or Isxeve dissapear three of my four accounts will go insta-deleted. They exist to pay expensive toys for the main.

Evehunter
Edgar  
#27 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 7:33:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Questor needs to be done private and paid ASAP.


Private and paid is an oxymoron.
Gray  
#28 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 7:39:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Da_Teach Go to Quoted Post
And CCP, at least give me some credit if you decide to implement some of my idea's ;) Even if it's just by a private email which you can easily deny exists. (and yes I know your most likely reading this!)

I'm lost... At first Da_Teach ignores every advice which would have helped to keep Questor out of harm, or at least to prolong its life. I don't question it, because I think DT it just too busy rl to implement these features. Now, he just helps CCP to hasten destruction of his creation. Da_Teach, just tell us: WHY??

Originally Posted by: Bonzo Go to Quoted Post
Furthermore Da_Teach made it perfectly clear he didn't want to create a subscription based model for questor because then (if he's charging for money) he'll be obligated to provide tech-support and regular patches etc. I know he does already, but only as a hobby in his spare time.

Which is not necessarily true either. Look, Amadeus (ISXEve creator) explicitly says:

Quote:
An ISXEVE subscription grants you two things and two things only: access to the features available on the current version of ISXEVE for up to three different computers within a 24 hour time period, and free downloads of new versions of ISXEVE as they become available.

which basically means - no obligations, at all, even though it's pretty much paid. And people actually pay! I wonder what does make Da_Teach think that it will be forced to put a lot more effort into his bot once it becomes private and paid...
Edgar  
#29 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 7:42:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Da_Teach Go to Quoted Post
And CCP, at least give me some credit if you decide to implement some of my idea's ;) Even if it's just by a private email which you can easily deny exists. (and yes I know your most likely reading this!)

I'm lost... At first Da_Teach ignores every advice which would have helped to keep Questor out of harm, or at least to prolong its life. I don't question it, because I think DT it just too busy rl to implement these features. Now, he just helps CCP to hasten destruction of his creation. Da_Teach, just tell us: WHY??


DT is doing this for fun and if he gets banned he will move on to another game (if he hasn't already). He already did that once before with Eve when he was banned a couple years ago. Actually, he may not have been banned but rather lost interest and sold all his characters. I don't remember which.

Edited by user Monday, March 28, 2011 7:44:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Gray  
#30 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 8:03:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Edgar Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Questor needs to be done private and paid ASAP.


Private and paid is an oxymoron.

"Private" as in "available to fixed limited number of users", rather than "used by author only".
Gray  
#31 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 8:06:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Edgar Go to Quoted Post
DT is doing this for fun and if he gets banned he will move on to another game

If Eve is still fun for him, then I'd still care about bot safety if I was him - because once Questor is down, DT won't be able to bot either. If either EVE or botting in it is not fun anymore - why not sell the project to someone who would like to support it any further and do his best to keep it safe?
Isker  
#32 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 8:07:03 PM(UTC)
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Because he wants a job doing this! =D But seriously in the CCP Security presentation they were all like "blah blah it's hard to find the right kind of people to do this! That's why it's taken so long." Meanwhile DT is here saying "hey hire me idiots this is what I do!."
Legit ISK.com - Not so legit
intelceleron11  
#33 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 8:35:12 PM(UTC)
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I'd be up for privatization too. Simply put, it's an extra layer of entry that many won't want to try, keeping questor "fresher, longer"

CCP is starting to realize that plex is becoming just a cash dump that eventually won't really help them spawn new accounts, it'll only help people spawn alternate accounts. If they "buy them back" from the market, they're paying nothing to remove plex's from the game, and injecting isk into the system - doesn't solve the problem, but keeps the price of plex stable. Simply put, the only company that's authorized to RMT will be CCP. CCP also knows, though, that plex's are a great way of free advertisement for your friends to join: "hey I'm rich, I'll start you out with a couple months free and you can see if you like the game or not", so they dont' want to actually kill plex entirely, just tighten the supply to avoid a dangerous drop in the market - which will in effect de-incentivise buying timecards and shifting favor to alternate isk suppliers. (timecards are only worth 200mil in game, that means 400 mil for a what? 30 or 40 buck GTC? 40 bucks gets you somewhere like 1.5 bil in the game currently through sellers.)

They don't have to kill all bots, just enough so that they thin out the plex supply (any bots have 'em in reserve? yeah, I bet they do, and all assets get banned with the character) and cause the cycle of "sinks" to continue (skillbook payments, corp fees, LP store items (how much do crystals actually cost to buy from the gurista LP store?), etc).

The fundamental flaw is that they have a nearly runaway economy - that's why they're changing the high bounty BS's to only low truesec systems. When botting comes back into the picture after the reset (some have reported 0.0 wastelands currently), they won't be making as much from thin air, and therefore they're actually fixing inflation.

Honestly I wouldn't worry about mass bans, I don't think they're going to clamp down on bots hugely, they're just trying to reach equilibrium and as one CCP rep put it "increase the cost of doing business", not 'banning anyone that ever macro'd or RMT'd'.
Edgar  
#34 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 10:10:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Edgar Go to Quoted Post
DT is doing this for fun and if he gets banned he will move on to another game

If Eve is still fun for him, then I'd still care about bot safety if I was him - because once Questor is down, DT won't be able to bot either. If either EVE or botting in it is not fun anymore - why not sell the project to someone who would like to support it any further and do his best to keep it safe?


Eve is not fun for DT. Botting Eve is fun for him. He has already said on IRC that he is pushing his bot army "just to see how long it takes CCP to ban him". Honestly you are all foolish to be using the released version of Questor (more specifically DirectEve.DLL) if you care about being banned.
Isker  
#35 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 11:34:50 PM(UTC)
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The three strikes rule makes it quite a bit easier to push things to the limit.
Legit ISK.com - Not so legit
Gray  
#36 Posted : Monday, March 28, 2011 11:55:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Edgar Go to Quoted Post
Honestly you are all foolish to be using the released version of Questor (more specifically DirectEve.DLL) if you care about being banned.

I'm using my own version of Questor, and I've put A LOT of effort into it so far, like a month of coding 10 hours per day. But yes, I use directeve.dll - just because I've got no choice. Also, it's not like I care so much about bans that I stop playing Eve after banwave - but it takes time and money to train new chars up. So, if banwaves come more often that, say, 3-4 months - it becomes pretty much pointless to bot any further. Though, in case CCP do really use this "three strikes rule" - I'm all in for it! The following is for CCP (if they really read this forum):

It's ok, warn every my account every month, I'll register fresh accounts and pay even more to transfer my chars, just to earn the right to bot for another month. This way we both get profit: I get it from RMT, you get 3x payment compared to a common player (new acc + transfer vs just monthly payment). OTOH, if you warn me more often or even instaban, it might just become unprofitable to bot any further (which results in no more payments from me).

Finally, I honestly don't understand people who ruin useful things instead of selling them... If you (Edgar) are right, and DT does really think like that (how do you know it, btw? are you his friend?), then I don't get the point of having this forum and even supporting Questor as it is. What is the reason to support a product which is already condemned by its creator?
Porksta  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 12:21:56 AM(UTC)
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"Ehhe I wish I was able to use golem... noway, I've started to play Eve just 3 months ago, and wasted a lot of time trying things that aren't really profitable, so I'm still flying a BC with crap skills (at 3 mostly, ones needed for T2 gear at 4). But, with crap skills and with no access to T3 ships - frigates and especially destroyers are still too small for a BC. So my usual practice is to set Questor to kill enemy BC first (they deal decent damage, but they are really fragile compared to BS, and they receive full damage from my weapons), then BS, then cruisers and then frig-size. Of course, it's different for ganza, blockade etc: priority is "BC, then crus, then frig, then BS" there.

Then again, a lot of Questor users, including its author, fly golems, so I'd say it's ok that Questor uses "big to small" as default sequence."


This was in a post about target priorities. http://forum.thehackerwi...rgetting-priorities.aspx


I don't understand how you make money from rmt with crap drake pilots. I smell bullshit somewhere.
Edgar  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:38:07 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
If you (Edgar) are right, and DT does really think like that (how do you know it, btw? are you his friend?), then I don't get the point of having this forum and even supporting Questor as it is. What is the reason to support a product which is already condemned by its creator?


If you've spent any time in the #isxeve channel you would have seen his comments too. His opinions may have changed in the last few months but I doubt it. Also, I'm pretty sure he put this forum up for you guys could support each other so he didn't have to support you. :)
Cormac  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:09:54 AM(UTC)
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Just like to say that if botting wasn't a driving force behind RMT (and thus lost revenue) and just used to enhance a users game play like most here, CCP wouldn't care about it enough to do anything. So use bots however you want but public declarations of using a tool for RMT will only hasten its end. I'm not sure why anyone would want to admit to it anyway, just because we bot doesn't mean we like those actions.
Gray  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:31:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porksta Go to Quoted Post
I don't understand how you make money from rmt with crap drake pilots. I smell bullshit somewhere.

First, I've never said "drake". Second, you're prolly going to be surprised, but BCs can kill red crosses as well - making less isk/hour than golems, indeed, but still making it. Third and main, even battlecruisers can do wonders when you've got a farm of them. Well maybe not wonders, but just enough for me. And I smell a snob somewhere...

Edited by user Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:09:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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