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Isker  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:26:30 PM(UTC)
Isker

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I know the reasons why, because they don't differ from any other MMO I have played. Hell they don't differ from the real world. Why do we let one overseer run 500 robots in the GM factory making our cars?

GM: staff of 100 robot technicians to operate car factory http://www.robots.com/articles.php?tag=1436
NASA Replacing astronauts with robots: http://jalopnik.com/5516...gm+built-humanoid-robots

I could link 10000 articles but I won't. The writing has been on the wall for 3 decades. Robots and AI have replaced humans in all situations:
1.) dangerous
2.) repetitive
3.) requiring sensitive timing
4.) where data processing and reaction via behavior tree is bottlenecked (too many contingencies for humans)
5.) statistically predictable but require too much memory space for humans and deemed "random" (numbers)
6.) computers way better at every number ever
7.) pristine memory and exact reproduction/duplication

Fact: they are better at many things than humans, like thousands to billions of times better. But there isn't an inkling of an AGI or artificial general intelligence. Its easy to make a database of a billion specific weights but it's hard to make a HUMAN choice. Impossible currently. And there Is a lot of stuff humans, even 5 year olds, will beat the AI at 97% of the time.

Stuff humans do better at:
1.) non-linear thinking
2.) interpreting complex and often contradictory input
3.) usefully drawing from a very wide, cross-disciplinary set of knowledge (even children can understand natural language better than the best NLP software)
4.) predicting how other humans will respond and react to a given set of inputs. The best Netflix prediction algorithm in the world can't do better than a friend/neighbor you spend 30 mins a week with.(empathy)
5.) intuitively understanding context
6.) drawing conclusions and a plan in situations with no predicate
7.) utilizing non-quantitative/unquantified/qualitative data effectively

You do all those things every day.

The point is this. Games live entirely in he digital realm and it's very easy to bring the AI/Bot factor in. Yet modern day games moreso try to pretend like were in 1938 Novograd where there's NO technology capable of automated analysis and action. If we have bots 90% controlling the real, actual 2011 markets, and real bots doing 80% of the work to build 2011 cars, how does it make sense that bots aren't mining 90% of our fuel and ore in 35677676 Eve year. There's your "RP" factor. Real world: how easily did those GM line workers give up their jobs to fucking robots? Oh they fought. They fought.

CCP: please tell me you're dedicating far far more resources toward challenging, inviting, and capturing human attention and enjoyment than you are to banning the bots doing all the stuff that they're so good at and humans hate to.

http://m.youtube.com/ind...blazer&v=Yadj3asTyc0
"From General Motors perspective we want to automate tasks that are very repetitious, dull, or ergonomically challenging for our operators. Those requirements are very similar to some of the tasks that NASA would like to automate to help an astronaut. From that perspective we're looking at using robots and automation to support our operators, to support our people doing the things that are not as 'value added' for the operators. "

"The goal here is that there are many tasks which can be more efficiently offloaded to robots. For example, theres a lot of setup before important tasks and a lot of teardown after. Particularly on space stations. Setting up tools and equipment. If a robot can perform those tasks it can allow astronauts to spend more time performing tasks only they can do. Partnership between NASA and GM has resulted in benefits in no one expected. Both sides are looking for the most effective system as possible. The most amazing part has been is how the overlap. Many of the complexities we see in space overlap with systems used in building cars which are safe for humans to use."


So the ultimate summary of all this is:
Ive come to know a lot of people involved with MMO botting over the last 6 years or so. Sure some just see it as an income route. Recently ive met a few that, due to shitty life circumstances and whatev see it as their own limited routed. But the majority I've interacted with really got into it because, fundamentally, MMO's are one of a very few environments where you can play frankenstein with AI and programming and machine learning in real time with real people as both competitors and compatriats.

Sure they could be apart of some government/industry/academia team project and maybe make something awesome. Or they could hunker down for a weekend, plug in some interaction library, and try to grow their own Frankenstein. And once you've built something that.....works. That does something remotely close to what you originally planned it's like the highest high ever and you job want to make it better. It's no wonder people fight do hard.

What I propose is a middle ground. WoW implemented an extensive open API for mods. Something that that effect, but limited to specific sets of gameplay which are desgimated automation allowed. Furthermore, foster competition between humans and AI. Foster sale of AI technology in the limited domians. Encourage the AI experts to turn against non-sanctioned AI. Allow AI at most/all "high" levels AKA no direct impac, but 100% access to pull IN data and present it either as top level briefings or real time reporting.



Ultimately my opinion is that you should encourage AI in a controlled manner and direct the talents and energy of people who want to use accessible platform to experiment. Realistically, this is where the world is going for IRL war. The US air force has already stated the current generation of fighters will be the last manned ones. Automated drones with the ability to shift to human direction is the way of the future.

The AI used to write advanced automated recon bot for Eve is probably 60-80% of the code needed for real life recon. What do you want to be in 20 years? The most awesomest spaceship game evaf, or a company with nearly two decades experience with war and recon automation, and close ties to a large community of experts in the field?

Edited by user Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:30:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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thanks 1 user thanked Isker for this useful post.
Gray on 3/29/2011(UTC)
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PoorNewb23  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:35:32 PM(UTC)
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...and they will be US Airforce last generation of airfighters as well, after someone hacks those nice drones and uses them to bomb US military targets. Historically, US Military infsec has always been shit (recent failures with sending video feed from Predator drones in FFA satellite band only serve illustrate how much of colossal failure it is), it's never been exploited on truly massive scale before.


Anyway, let's get more on topic:
There are two problems with mainstream bots in EVE:

1. EVE it's highly competitive, one sharded game - single balance failure would affect all players.
2. The way game is set up, you would have to automate 100% of all activities.

To make mainstream botting viable, you would have to design your game from ground up. You can't apply mainstream botting to existing mmo game designs and still have players having fun.



Besides, it's like in sports - we could make robot that could jump 10 times higher human can, or run 5 times faster, or shoot with perfect accuracy. Yet we still have human Olympics. It gives us joy, even if it could be done 'better' by machines.

Edited by user Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:38:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Isker  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:00:55 PM(UTC)
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I do think there is a middle ground, though I didn't lay it out succinctly in my post. Short version:

1. API for eve specifically for botting
2. Concede to bots all activities which people don't want to do (mining to start, how bout 0.0 sovereign security?)
3. Clear boundary between acceptable bot (I really prefer AI if this goes legit) and punishable
4. Make programming, AI, etc. a real part of the game and put it where it's useful. 24/7 needed tasks like security. Shit jobs like mining
5. Add a real time API to READING some data to bring the AI factor to fleet battles and decisions
6. Really, REALLY push AI/data analysis as part of the game. I bet I could identify a fuckload of spies with irc/corp/fleet actions, a bit of background research and analysis, and then real time action monitoring
7. SPECIFICALLY set the limits through the APIs
8. SPECIFICALLY reward those who can provide useful data on those operating outside the limits

The profit motive here for existing botters is enough to be worth it. Expertise in implementing systems inside prescribed limits, connections to this community, etc. It's enough on CCP's part to make no script/bot just copy and paste "fuck yeah it worked". If they wanted to limit certain parameters so you always need to have someone with a clue at least getting you going. I don't fucking know. Make it so when you're automated it's limited to a certain artificial subhuman efficiency. Or you can only do it 5 hours a day.

The point is to try to harness and integrate the segment of people who are using this as their frankenstein laboratory instead of making them enemies. I see this base all the time "I just enjoy setting up and tweaking my bots more than I enjoyed played." and I know a dozen people who got their start programming because they wanted to fuck around with how a bot worked. These people are not enemies, they're customers with no home or option.

RMT exists and always will but Eve especially of the top tier MMOs has that firmly in hand, simply by legitimizing and controlling it. The majority of botters I know in Eve are hobbyists. Botting and RMT are not inextricably linked and my understanding is that account hacking contributes a much larger part of the problem (hence the two factor authentication for with WoW and Eve).

Legitimize this, make a place for it. Who programmed the fucking drones? Those are bots too!

Edited by user Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:17:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Gray  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:41:09 PM(UTC)
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I second everything Isker has said. CCP: in case you can't just openly allow botting to not "lose your face", just stop banning botter accounts - warn any revealed account that is older than month instead. Say, first warning with no temp ban, second with a week long ban, and then permban - for greedy ones. This way ones who don't imagine EVE w/o botting keep doing their work, and you receive your "tax" in form of new account payment + transfer payment. Of course, warning are to be placed on account rather than char, so they don't move to new accounts together with char! Maybe allow namechanges for transferred chars too, plus maybe possibility to disappear from contacts of other people (not sure if it's already allowed/possible). And, indeed, stop these "cat and mouse" games of function hooks obfustation and restriction! As Ikser said, there are better ways to apply your coding powers.

To PoorNewb23: consider EVE pvp as human Olympics - no bots can effectively pvp unless enemy is an imbecile. And take isk grinding as a factory, where humans HAVE to be replaced with robots some day. Like one of our writed said, "human is created for happiness [rather than for dull and boring activities]". Pvp is fun, so let ppl pvp and let botters bot.
Isker  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:43:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PoorNewb23 Go to Quoted Post
...and they will be US Airforce last generation of airfighters as well, after someone hacks those nice drones and uses them to bomb US military targets. Historically, US Military infsec has always been shit (recent failures with sending video feed from Predator drones in FFA satellite band only serve illustrate how much of colossal failure it is), it's never been exploited on truly massive scale before.


The incidence of breach in truly hardened government digital systems is no higher than the failure rate of humans. There are vulnerabilities in digital systems but those with enough money and resources to harden them almost universally fail at a human checkpoint to begin with. Or they dumped so much fucking money and time....well everything can and is broken with infinite money.


Anyway, let's get more on topic:
There are two problems with mainstream bots in EVE:

Quote:

1. EVE it's highly competitive, one sharded game - single balance failure would affect all players.
2. The way game is set up, you would have to automate 100% of all activities.

To make mainstream botting viable, you would have to design your game from ground up. You can't apply mainstream botting to existing mmo game designs and still have players having fun.



Besides, it's like in sports - we could make robot that could jump 10 times higher human can, or run 5 times faster, or shoot with perfect accuracy. Yet we still have human Olympics. It gives us joy, even if it could be done 'better' by machines.


I addressed my strategy above. What I envision is something where there's a CCP meeting us halfway building some of this as part of the game itself. When were all enemies it's easy to band together and work to defeat them. When they're extending a hand, embracing us, but saying "hey you cant do this stuff cause we think it's breaking the game" how many people do you think are left in the dark alleys? The people who only care about RMT and maybe some others, but I bet all my isk more are on this side, working on their legit stuff and willing to help CCP keep it legit for their piece.

Maybe I'm too sunny eyed. I've firsthand seen how much AI, machine learning, etc. penetrates our daily lives and is built into the products we use. The fact that there's no mainstream open world where this is part of it just baffles me really. Especially eve. I mean if we follow "lore" I have to assume that 99% of the items and ships and stations and everything in eve is run by AIs. How the fuck do I train into AI programming?
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PoorNewb23  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:28:18 PM(UTC)
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For large scale pvp, it's all about following FC target broadcasts and warping out when targeted. It's simpler than empire mining, really. The other problem is that there would be no way for human to best bot (when it comes to following orders, or as a logistic pilot), the way EVE is set up right now.

Example of something that would work would be fleet warfare that is more about commanding fleets of AI ships (with player vessels as unique/leading super-ships, more focused at providing bonuses and direction, than just pure firepower), where the whole pattern recognition, outsmarting your enemy and other fields humans excel at would enter the play (and thus provide best deterrent against unauthorized botting; good luck writing bot that can beat human at pattern recognition). However, to do all that, you would have to rebuild large part of the game.
zach  
#7 Posted : Thursday, March 31, 2011 2:22:49 PM(UTC)
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at the very least the addition of custom interface tools would allow missioning to be easier and working with your ship easier.

like creating a ui element that monitors your current cap usage and shield boosting and gives you an estimate on how long your cap/tank will last.
PoorNewb23  
#8 Posted : Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:42:19 PM(UTC)
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand ccp just delivered.

They made api for your market bot. It's even in the very area of your expertise, Isker.

http://www.eveonline.com...g.asp?a=blog&bid=889
dramann01  
#9 Posted : Friday, April 1, 2011 4:41:54 AM(UTC)
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Edited by user Friday, April 1, 2011 4:53:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Serpentstar  
#10 Posted : Saturday, April 2, 2011 7:31:25 PM(UTC)
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Not sure if this is related, but it seems CPP already has something similar.... Running Eve without Graphics or sound?

http://www.eveonline.com...g.asp?a=blog&bid=779

It even specifically talks about the "average" user having 3 clients at once. So, they know this is there. Just my .5 cents worth because the whole 2 isn't quite ready yet.
Bonzo  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 4, 2011 10:34:58 AM(UTC)
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I suppose as far as automation goes it's a matter of keeping it fair to those who don't play EVE just to pvp.

I know it sounds strange but I imagine there are those who are either not very good at pvp or genuinely don't enjoy it, instead deriving "fun" out of amassing large amounts of wealth and splurging it on ships and equipment they'll probably never use.

It's these individuals who would be at an unfair disadvantage if everything was suddenly automated. Don't get me wrong, I wholly agree that boring, repetitive tasks should be authorised to use bots and the like to save doing it for those of us who really do just find it boring, but I can see why there's an opposition to it.
Gray  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 4, 2011 4:03:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bonzo Go to Quoted Post
It's these individuals who would be at an unfair disadvantage if everything was suddenly automated. Don't get me wrong, I wholly agree that boring, repetitive tasks should be authorised to use bots and the like to save doing it for those of us who really do just find it boring, but I can see why there's an opposition to it.

It's not even close to truth. There is helluva load of PVE actions which can NEVER be automated, because they are simply too hard to implement. Example #1 from WoW would be raiding. I haven't learned EVE well enough to come with similar example, but I'm sure there has to be one. For example, what do people do to gain T3 ship resources? I've heard the word "Sleepers", but never met them, indeed. No bots can farm these places, AFAIK.

My point is: bots can't put smart people under any disadvantage - they always find a place where bots can't compete with them. And, well, people who aren't smart....... are doomed to suffer, but that's life.
rixim  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:46:39 PM(UTC)
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[tl;dr: CCP does not provide a botting API because they do not know how to do that and make the game Fair, Balanced, Fun and Affordable (for them to run).]

The most important part of this issue I feel has been mostly glossed over. It's not botting that breaks the game. If the bots aren't hacking the game they are simply exposing pre-existing broken game mechanics. If CCP provided an API for automation, which I personally think they should, they would need to recreate EVEs metaphysics from the ground up. The core issue here is not API exposure or function obfuscation (which is plain stupid). The core issue is "broken" game mechanics and the fact few people believe that it is possible to use the mathematics available today to make a game fair, balanced and fun. If the game was fair and balanced in the first place there would be no unfair advantage for the AI to exploit.

In the case of EVE there is an addition to the fair, balanced and fun condition that is worth mentioning, user actions that are server-side CPU intensive should have a corresponding in-game expense. In other words, a player using a missile frigate actually costs CCP more money than a player using a laser frigate, because the calculations required to have the missile fly through space are more expensive. This difference in cost to CCP is not reflected in the difference in cost to the player in terms of ISK. Arguably, if CCP had to worry about the CPU usage of different weapons while they were making the game, it would impede on their ability to also make the game fun. Although I suspect most hardcore EVE players and especially bot users would disagree with the position, I do not see the botting community really providing a strong counter argument against the increased development complexity.

That being said, if the cost of isk (or some other base commodity) was properly accounted for in terms of compute time, then it would be advantageous for CCP to provide a more robust RMT service than the PLEX service they currently provide. which would increase total player satisfaction and ultimately reduce the cost of botting to CCP.

Don Rames  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:42:18 AM(UTC)
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To PoorNewb23: consider EVE pvp as human Olympics - no bots can effectively pvp unless enemy is an imbecile. And take isk grinding as a factory, where humans HAVE to be replaced with robots some day. Like one of our writed said, "human is created for happiness [rather than for dull and boring activities]". Pvp is fun, so let ppl pvp and let botters bot.
vicious666  
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:50:42 AM(UTC)
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Considering right now 30% of total ppl online is a bot., and that every bot augment request of plex for renew accounts, that make plex more profitable for players.

ccp will never do something against bots. since it get them shitload of $ , this is why they dont give a fuck about bots even if you bot like me with 50+ 24/24, but instaban me every new char after when i do rmt, in like 2-6h (too late for them anyway sorry ccp) becouse it cause them a real $ dmg.

if ccp tomorrow wanna ban al botters they can do it easly. with a simple log check for characters and theyr activity. they bullshi the community by sayng that PPL need to report botters, that is a "cover" becouse they know that 90% not give a fuck and 9% fail to report botters. , ccp have no intentions to fight botter as long it bring them a profit.
zach  
#16 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:29:18 AM(UTC)
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i wonder do they graph the amount of people offline after patches to see what eves like without bots?
Gray  
#17 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:46:29 AM(UTC)
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Don't wonder. Some botting toons are already up and running - either they are using some another bot, or they belong to DT/Rixim/Edgar/Ganondorf/some1 else with access to DE sources Flapper It's not like every bot user lies low for exactly two days after patch, and then they all get back to their dirty work at the same moment...
rixim  
#18 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:48:32 PM(UTC)
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OCR bots are less affected by patches, in general.
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