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Johnstone  
#1 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 7:26:04 AM(UTC)
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So, I'm sure we're all familiar with the the current state and methods of mission griefing.

As a quick recap:

1.) You get scanned out.
2.) Scanner proceeds to wait for bot to kill mission objective with a required item drop
3.) Item is Ninja'd
4.) This is the point where things diverge a bit:
----Normally, if a carebear is stupid, they shoot the thief, and are subsequently bumped by a neutral Orca alt of the ninja, who swaps to a dps ship and kills you (or invites cloaked friends to kill you etc etc.)
----The bot, however, doesn't shoot the ninja, and doesn't get a timer. This is excellent, and as intended.

What isn't so great, is that now the bot gets stuck in a cannot complete loop, and warps to and from the mission till you stop and quit the mission.

A Second problem introduced by being scanned out, is that if a mission has a gate. If your mission contains gates, and the griefer/salvagethief/etc is currently in the mission deadspace, and you turn the mission in, the gates do not despawn, and deadspace remains intact. This prevents you salvager from doing any salvaging (it just sits on the accel gate saying it can't warp to the location).

When doing missions normally, both of these are fairly easy to deal with. You simply warp out, and come back. If there are rats still alive, the ninja has to run (usually) and as often as not doesn't come back. Additionally, by stopping immediately, and coming back, you stop short of exposing any mission items to be stolen. The net effect is that MOST of the time, they just move on, and you can continue as normal.

My feature request is actually pretty simple in concept (I've no idea about how easy it would be to implement):

If a player lands ongrid while ExecuteMission, goto Panic state, and warp out. If possible, kill only active scrams, and leave.

A tangential, or possibly additional request, would be a method of checking the mission log while Salvage phase is active. If no accepted mission (as in it's been completed), use gates (so at least you get something out of it). Alternatively, if Salvage encounters a gate, skip salvaging, and get the next mission.

Sorry if this is a bit long winded, I like to explain the premise of my thoughts.
I've encountered all of these situations in the past 4 hours, from 4 different aggressors, so, it's definitely costing people time, and possibly giving CCP behavioral patterns to home in on.
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KingMike  
#2 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 10:54:57 AM(UTC)
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This would be great functionality to have.
As soon as Questor sees the message about spacial anomaly preventing the warp, go to base and kick off another mission.
I dont mind being ninja salvaged but I hate to lose hours at times to this... Not talking

I would pay for this...

Edited by user Friday, April 29, 2011 10:57:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

zach  
#3 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 3:40:14 PM(UTC)
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i would suggest that if it enters panic more than 3 times in the same mission then it just dumps the mission and gets a new one.
zach  
#4 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 3:40:57 PM(UTC)
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i would suggest that if it enters panic more than 3 times in the same mission then it just dumps the mission and gets a new one.
Gray  
#5 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 5:57:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnstone Go to Quoted Post

What isn't so great, is that now the bot gets stuck in a cannot complete loop, and warps to and from the mission till you stop and quit the mission.

Thanks godness, it doesn't happen often enough if you do not farm in a ridiculously popular system like Motsu. I didn't care to look into it, because of having never encountered this problem (knock-knock); besides, I'm not even sure that there is a hook in DirectEve to quit mission...

Originally Posted by: Johnstone Go to Quoted Post

A Second problem introduced by being scanned out, is that if a mission has a gate. If your mission contains gates, and the griefer/salvagethief/etc is currently in the mission deadspace, and you turn the mission in, the gates do not despawn, and deadspace remains intact. This prevents you salvager from doing any salvaging (it just sits on the accel gate saying it can't warp to the location).

This part is simplier: if there is an acceleration gate, then salvage ship should use the gate, rather than try to warp to the next bookmark. Why quit salvaging? Ninjas can't tractor your wrecks, so you most probably outrun him by following gates and tractoring your wrecks quickly.

Concerning rats alive... If you've set your toon to blitz, you should probably turn off salvaging. Otherwise, there should be no rats left. Moreover, panic applies to salvaging ship too, no?
Rx2  
#6 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 6:35:45 PM(UTC)
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Yes the salvager can go into panic mode (darn cap!), but I noticed if it docks for the panic then it gets confused that it's not in space and just sits there. I haven't looked at the code for it yet, but I'd imagine it would be minor fix that I can do when I get some free time.
Johnstone  
#7 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2011 9:45:14 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Concerning rats alive... If you've set your toon to blitz, you should probably turn off salvaging. Otherwise, there should be no rats left. Moreover, panic applies to salvaging ship too, no?


I believe you misunderstood me Gray. The point of warping is that if a player intrudes on your mission, and there are rats still alive, warping is an excellent way to force them to leave without getting flagged. 90% of them are in really soft or small ships, so L4 rats will make very quick work of them if they don't run. Doing this solves three problems at once: Mission items won't be ninja'd (you warp, and stop killing, so items won't be dropped), and the ninja will be forced out of your mission (most won't go back resulting in you being able to complete mission normally).

Regarding the point about most popular systems. I do not farm in places like Motsu. I run L4Q0 agents for several of the branch corporations (none at all for the 'well known' navy's etc) to try and minimize this very issue.
Gray  
#8 Posted : Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:35:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnstone Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Concerning rats alive... If you've set your toon to blitz, you should probably turn off salvaging. Otherwise, there should be no rats left. Moreover, panic applies to salvaging ship too, no?


I believe you misunderstood me Gray. The point of warping is that if a player intrudes on your mission, and there are rats still alive, warping is an excellent way to force them to leave without getting flagged.

This would be a solid point but for the small detail: TIME. If you warp away with intent return back later just to save parts of your loot, you lose several minutes to warp here and back (the more pockets there are, the more you lose). Saved loot simply isn't worth this time. In many cases (guristas missions, for example) loot and salvage doesn't even compensate the time spent on it, so I've added a "nosalvage" flag to these mission xmls... let alone warping here and back to save it!

I'd say: care less about loot, just kill and complete, accept new mission, kill and complete. Salvage/loot is like a minor optional bonus. If some trasher has came for it - fuck it, time is more important. Even more important to never let you get stuck - this is the main reason I've modified salvaging part of questor so it uses acceleration gates while salvaging rather than just tries to warp in deadspace over and over again, like a bot dumb.
Johnstone  
#9 Posted : Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:52:32 AM(UTC)
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You are still missing my point.

This is not about the loot or salvage.

This is about avoiding griefers who are there thinking you're not a bot, and steal REQUIRED mission items PREVENTING THE COMPLETION of your mission, which causes the bot to loop. (sorry for the caps, but I thought this was clear).

Also salvage/Looting can easily double ISK/H in some missions (even including LP at 1500isk/LP). Calling it a small bonus is a bit of an understatement. This consideration is easily handled by proper setting of minimum wrecks to create bm, and is a non issue. Blitz's will not be looted/salvaged, ones with piles of drone goo will.

In any case, to restate: This is not about saving salvage, this is about avoiding a loop situation due to griefers.
Gray  
#10 Posted : Saturday, April 30, 2011 2:33:28 AM(UTC)
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Ok, let me clarify once again... There were two separate points in my message, actually. First, as I've said, I understand the problem of griefers and its consequences - I've just never experienced it and thus didn't care to implement the solution. Maybe some day later, if DT lets me into his team and start to sell Questor... so I'll HAVE TO do it RollEyes

The second point was concerning simple ninjas, who couldn't care less if you are a bot or no, because they care about their profit only. Solution of this problem is way simplier: using gates on salvage ship + ignoring ninjas, completely.
Bonzo  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 3, 2011 11:15:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I've just never experienced it


I suppose the majority of griefing/ninja looters occur in high traffic mission hubs, which is where the OP has been having trouble. I think I've encountered one or two ninja looters whilist using questor, but not that many.

I've seen more than my fair share whilst not even using questor (i.e. just missioning normally), it can be quite frustrating when a key mission item is stolen.

From a purely isk/hour standpoint I agree that implementing a "panic on intrusion" feature would be inefficient, but it might be an interesting optional feature to implement sometime in the future. I think though, that the moral of the story is not to run questor in high-traffic mission hubs where the chances of being scanned down are that much larger.
Johnstone  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:17:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bonzo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I've just never experienced it


I suppose the majority of griefing/ninja looters occur in high traffic mission hubs, which is where the OP has been having trouble. ...


Not true, I clarified in a later post. I run Q0 Agents for non-primary Corporations. At most, I usually see 15 people in the base systems.
The reason I propose the change is because griefers have figured out how to utilize the agent finder, same as the rest of us, and seem to be spreading out from the Motsu/Nakri/etc of the 'verse.

Also, at most, A simple warp away and back to mission would consume 2 minutes of time, assuming a 45AU warp. This is far from tragic for the potential to prevent a stuck loop that CCP can home in on.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:20:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Da_Teach  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:30:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray Go to Quoted Post
Maybe some day later, if DT lets me into his team and start to sell Questor...


Let me just state that this will never happen, the attitude that you've displayed on this forum makes me never want to work with you.

RoadRunner70  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:20:03 AM(UTC)
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Is it in poor taste to mention I giggled? I considered going into more detail as to why but decided against it because I doubt "DT" needs iteration to the things he has posted :)
ciocio  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:44:52 AM(UTC)
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you could just buy mission objective items (Damsel etc.) on contracts and keep a small stock of them in your hangar at all times.
zach  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 9:09:50 AM(UTC)
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then you would be paying ppl to come in and steal your mission loot. you really want to encourage them?
KingMike  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 9:22:17 AM(UTC)
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I think buying some mission item occasionally beats being stuck on warp gate forever. DT please introduce this feature. I beg you.
deXtoRious  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:30:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KingMike Go to Quoted Post
I think buying some mission item occasionally beats being stuck on warp gate forever. DT please introduce this feature. I beg you.


The feature is already there. Buy your stash of mission items and use the "bring" command where necessary.
zach  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 2:54:45 PM(UTC)
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that will fail the mission if you dont have it in your hanger. although if you just leave it in your hanger it will complete the mission when it gets to the base and the mission objectives are complete.
Johnstone  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, May 4, 2011 4:51:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: deXtoRious Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: KingMike Go to Quoted Post
I think buying some mission item occasionally beats being stuck on warp gate forever. DT please introduce this feature. I beg you.


The feature is already there. Buy your stash of mission items and use the "bring" command where necessary.


This is not a very ideal solution. Hell, the required items (outside the obvious surplus things like Militants etc) often cost more than the mission it's for is worth, so you wind up at a net loss. Also, as has been already stated, creating a demand for these items will only make more common and desirable a target of theft, which is entirely counterproductive.
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